[Published on 12/11/20 by Digital Imaging Lab (1142)] It is the responsibility of the researcher to obtain any copyright clearances. Permission to publish material from this/these transcript(s) must be obtained from the Supervisor of Reference Services and/or the L. Tom Perry Special Collection Coordinating Committee. [Notes added by transcribers are in square brackets. Dashes in square brackets indicate unclear words or letters. indicate words the author inserted to a previously written line.] MSS 8934 - Oral History Interview with Stanislawa Habel (Intermediate) Number of Pages: 6 ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV004_01_ACASS_20010816_01.mp3) Respondent: Stanislawa Habel Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [beginning of recorded material] The following recording is made available by the L. Tom Perry Special Collections at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. No publication, reproduction, or further use, internet or otherwise, of this recording is allowed without express written permission from L Tom Perry Special Collections and the rights holders. [Interviewer]: Today is August 16th, 2001. I'm Dennis Campbell, and we're recording Stanis' life story. Stasha, I think I would like to hear you say your whole name the way you say it in your native land. [Respondent]: Okay, my name is Stanisława Machowk Habel, for my marriage name. And my shorter name is Stasha, from Stanisława. [Interviewer]:You were born March the 18th, 1943, in what city? [Respondent]: In... actually, it was place like, I don't know, maybe a village. It was during the war, all the family was there. And it was a Mariampol. Near like two hours from Warsaw. And the Mariampol, the post that they call... I don't know, they call the post office. It was in Gorbachev, and the county was Kozienice. And then another, they have another bigger, it like was, I don't know, state? It was Kielce. But that's all near, like two hours from Warsaw. [Interviewer]: Okay, and your parents' names? [Respondent]: My father name was Stanisław Machowk. And my mother, Helena Soha Mochowk. [Interviewer]: We'll talk about them later more in detail, but now let me find out what your family circumstances were at the time of your birth. This is something that of course you can't remember, you would have to have heard this from your parents. What were your family's circumstances when you were born? [Respondent]: My... it was during the war, and my mother, she marry my father, but my grandmother did not wish that my mother will marry my father. She told her not to marry, because you wouldn't have good life with him. But then when my grandmother died, my mother anyway marry my father. My father was 16 years younger than my mother. He say that he didn't stay long. He was just like 2, maybe 2 months after they got married, he stay and because the family during the war that they were all together. They came from Warsaw, a lot of family, and they were laughing for my father. They didn't like him, and so he left. And he said he would never come back. But then my mother, my grandmother, she came from the spirit world. It was one night when my father just retire. He recognize her voice. She told him, "You must go back to your wife." And she went, and he went, and that's all. She repeated three times and then my father was scared and he did go back to my mother. And then, he didn't stay that long too, like maybe another two months because it was still the war and the family was still there, so. He didn't want to live with them. But then, when he left to Germany, hee volunteered for another person. He was supposed to go, he said he wanted to go there. So, but then my mother was already pregnant with me. But my father even didn't know that, when he left. And that's in the way I was born after. [Interviewer]: Do you have any memories of yourself before you started school? [Respondent]: I do. I don't know, the first thing I remember probably when I was very small, or maybe my mother, she told me. She had to throw me to the other side of a little river because I was too heavy and she had to carry me and there was just army there, and she had to go straight away because they restricted area. And then I remember, I don't know, we went to some place. It was probably my mother friend, she say that I was pretty and I remember that. And then the last probably the first thing which I very well remember, it was when we were in the south of Poland with my uncle and my aunt, and I was living with my mother, together with them, and my cousin was about one year older than me. His name was Tadeusz, and my other... yeah, older cousin, she was... her name was Marysia. And the youngest born after was Krystyna. I remember when probably I was like three years old, we were playing together, always with me and my cousin. And then we always... my aunt, they warn us not to go to forest. One time we went, just... but we were scared so we didn't really go. And then the next, I remember my mother was sick, and I had to be with my... she took me away from my... she move to the place when I was near born, that was my father, the grandmother. She was living there, so I stay there when my mother was in hospital for two months. She had... I think she had. I forgot the name of the... actually it is the same. She had some kind of... it was very, a lot of people had it. So I didn't see my mother, I couldn't recognize her after when she came back from hospital, because I was used to my grandmother. And the next, I move again to another Aunt, in the south- in the north of Poland. It was in Koszalin, near Sweden. It was... and there I went to school when I was seven years old. But I came back when I was six years old there. And we live with my aunt, the oldest aunt, Kashmira Pacovska. [Interviewer]: At what age do children begin school in Poland? [Respondent]:At 7. [Interviewer]: And you remember your first day in school? [Respondent] It was... I could remember they always had to sing this Communist song. I think that's what they always start each morning. And you had to be exact time, not to miss the song. And I don't remember exactly the songs anymore. And actually, the teacher, I was lucky. The teacher already she was living at my grandmother. No, not my grandmother, my aunt. She was renting a room, so I know the teacher. I don't know much to remember actually of my first day, I remember the other days in school. I like to read books, actually. I got a lot of books and I was reading, and I don't remember how I learn to read, but I was able to read the books right away after. [Interviewer]: What was a typical school day like there? [Respondent]: There was... I think you had... just I don't know, don't have a good memory of that. Let's see, mostly it was a lot of writing and reading. And we had recess every- same like everywhere, we had the recess and we could go and play during recess. I remember the day... the teacher, which he was the principal, and his wife, they call each other. I think they call themself Mouse. And they also had also a cat. But nothing much. [Interviewer]: This is at an age when you begin to find friends. Can you still remember some of your friends from your school days? [Respondent]: Not, actually I don't remember any friend there from the school. I was there for I think the first grade and second grade. Just had- I don't remember any. [Interviewer]: So did you move to a different school when you got, say into the third grade and on into the upper grade? [Respondent]: Yes, third grade I move to a different school. I move to another place, not that far. It was still like maybe 20 miles, another place. I live with my cousin instead of my aunt. I live with my cousin. So I went there to school for the third grade. There I remember some friends, but I don't remember any name of any more of those friends. We used to go to the lake and to the library a lot of times. But in the library with one of my friend. [Interviewer]: Did you have any hobbies during these years? You said reading, was it? [Respondent]: Yes, I think maybe reading was the most... I really love reading. Later even, when I was like fourteen, sixteen, I would read. Oh by 14, actually I finish all my classic literature, and my mother wouldn't... she wanted to stop me to read because I would stay up all night and read books. So I would... she would close the lights and I got a pocket light, and I would read under my sheet, a book. And I... when I Don Quixote when I was reading, I was so much laughing, my mother thought I was crazy. [laughter] [Interviewer]: [laughter] How long is the school year? What is the summer vacation like for students in Poland? [Respondent]: It's actually the same, two months. It's finish at usually the John Baptist, June the 24. And then it's September, it starts in September. [Interviewer]: What did you do in the summer when school was out? [Respondent]: Actually, when I move already after from that my cousin, we live for only for one year there. Then, my older aunt, Janina, Myevska. She invited us to live with her. And she had older son, he was working. And he was a policeman. And they were not far, just the place where when I was going to third grade. When we went to visit her, then after, they were moving to farther. To another county. And that was a bit of, he was, they move there and they invited us to come there to live. So I... no that was not exactly, it was after actually. It was... first he was in some village, the police man. He was assigned. And then I went there for fourth grade. I had to walk to school, quite far. And there I make many more friends. Because we were walking together to school. Probably was like two or three miles to walk to school. Because that was still... yes somehow, it was the fourth grade was still there. And then they, after the fifth grade, it was the fifth grade. The fifth grade was already the same place I was living, and it was- the school was just not far. It was just like, two blocks to walk to school after. But then my uncle, my father brother, he came and he convince my mother that I should go to live with my grandmother, my father mother, and to go to school there. That it was much easier to study there. So she let me to go. And for a half a year, I was there, until Christmas, going to school. I was living with my grandmother. But then my mother, she miss me too much, and she decided I shouldn't stay there. And then, at that time I... my cousin who was policeman, his name was Tadeusz, he was transfered to Bytów, a small city on the north of Poland. And that city was big castle. We called them the Crusaders. They... when they came back they... how do you call them? They were wearing those crosses. We call them Krzyżowcy. [Interviewer]: They're like... in England, we call them knights? [Respondent]: Knights, yes, they were... [Interviewer]: Fighters? [Respondent]: Yes. But they were... that was the whole army which, you know, all those... they were in the Palestine. They went to Palestine. And that was in the twelfth century. [Interviewer]: Oh, on the Crusades. [Respondent]: Yes, those Crusaders. So they settle after the king of Poland gave them a place to settle in North Poland. And they build those big castles. Actually, they [---] and then they fight against Poland, after they got... they wanted power, so they went against Poland to fight and it was in 1410. In 15 century, they make a big war with Poland. And... but they didn't win because they weren't on the right side. They wanted to overpower, so Poland, they were singing. And they were over Christian. Poland was Christian at that time, and all the people from the east came to help Poland, even the Turkey, they were there before always fighting against Poland, the Tatar. The Genghis Khan, and you know those. But then, at that time they came and helped Poland, to help fight those Crusaders. So Poland did win the war, so they had to move after. But they left all those castles. [Interviewer]: When you continue on in your schooling, did Poland have what we would call a Junior High School? How does... the grades progress there? [Respondent]: No, they... elementary school was 7 grade. And that was from... I finish elementary school in Bytów already. And yes, from fifth grade, I arrive there from my grandmother. And I finish the seven grade. And the seven grade was already, you study all the sciences, like from fifth grade we had labs. In physics, and chemistry, and mathematics, geography, biology, it was just preparation. Like, already from fifth grade to seven you had, like you were prepared for your life, like if you wouldn't go to high school. So the education was very good. Because normally, we do experiments in labs. In physic, chemistry, I remember everything, like it was like here people would do in high school. We had that already in fifth grade, started in fifth grade. And also a second language, we had to start in fifth grade. But it was mostly Russian, we were... obligation, we had to study Russian, so. But the high school was 4 grades. It was from, so it was... you finish like 4 to 7, so you had 11 grades together. And you had to pass big exam in front of... you draw.... in you have pick up a, like vote, like you were vote, so you just pick up your vote, and you had to answer all the question in front of big auditorium of all the professors. And you had to write, some things you had to write also. [Interviewer]: So it sounds like you did continue on in school, on up to the 11th grade, is that correct? [Respondent]: Yes, I finish high school there in Poland too. [Interviewer]: And you sort of specialize in those grades, right? [Respondent]: We... no, we didn't need to specialize. We had to have all sciences, like, same as we study until fifth... seventh grade from fifth, all the same sciences, it was just expanded. So everything, you had to have biology, you had to have chemistry, and you had to have physics, mathematics, and literature. A lot of literature and history and politics. [Interviewer]: The reason I ask that, is my wife Helga, in her schooling, those grades they are already learning a craft, an occupation. [Respondent]: Oh, we had craft too! Yes we did had... [Interviewer]: So that you could go into a job, when you graduate. [Respondent]: Mhm [affirmative] yes. We had crafts, we had crafts. We learn everything. Crafts, and a lot of sports too. But it was, there were some other schools that you didn't go... like technical school. That you could choose instead of going to high school, you could go to technical school. Or you could go to, without doing... you could do together the high school in technical school. Or they had three years, after your elementary school, they had a three years basic job school. Which then, but then you never did the high school. You had, if you wanted, you had to do again, you had to extend I think two years more. So I remember that, some people did. [Interviewer]: In these upper grades are a little bit older of course. During the summer time, how did you spend your time then when school was out? [Respondent]: When I was in high school? Yes. Actually even in elementary school, when I went, oh I think it says fifth grade... every year they had some... oh even when I was that older in fourth grade, I remember I went for a vacation. They had the school organized for the children. They call it Colony. And that was like a summer camp, and actually it was the whole summer, almost the whole summer. You had to stay, when you decided to go there. And they had also camps from work, like, my mother, from her work I could be selected there to go. But mostly it was the school organize. The camp. So I actually, I remember every summer I went to the camp. In high school, actually I didn't. Then I didn't go anymore to summer camp. Because I... actually I went to evening school, instead of morning I went to evening school, because I tried to work some part times during the morning, and I think when I was 16 that's when I started to do some work. And during the summer also I did, between schools I went to work. [Interviewer]: Since you were born in 1943, the war was almost over. I don't suppose you have any memories about the war, do you? [Respondent]: No, I don't remember, no. [Interviewer]: How about it's aftermath? [Respondent]: After, I just, people were talking constantly. And I remember the most what I was scared of was airplanes. Because they usually come and bomb place. So that is just... the fear stay. But I don't have no memory and... and all the dreams, in the cities, I could see. [Interviewer]: During your childhood years, what were you church experiences, any? [Respondent]: Um, actually I was born Catholic. So I was probably baptized at... they usually baptize a baby, just probably 2, 3 months. I don't remember. My aunt was... yes, my aunt from Warsaw, she was my uncle wife, she was my baptismal mother. We call "mother". And my... yes, my father brother was my "father". They live no, about not far from that place when I was born, still there. [Interviewer]: Some of the holidays that you celebrated in Poland would have been equal to ours, let's talk about some of the holidays, how the families celebrated them. One common celebration, of course is Christmas. [Respondent]: Yes, Christmas was probably the same, like you know, Europe everywhere. We celebrate the Santa Claus on the 6 of December, and then usually there was... parade and during the Christmas, we had, the most celebrated was the Christmas Eve. People wouldn't eat meat all day on Christmas Eve. It is strange to think why. What was the reason why they don't eat meat on Christmas Eve. ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV004_02_ACASS_20010816_02.mp3) Interviewee: Stanislawa Habel (SH) Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [Beginning of Recorded Material] 00:25 [Respondent]: The main reason I think that people don't eat meat on Christmas Eve because I think is the belief that at midnight all the animals can talk and sing also Christmas carols to Jesus like in was the, because he was born in the, how you call that [Interviewer]: Stable. 00:55 [Respondent]: Stable yes, so I think that's why people didn't want to offend the animals so they, that's why they didn't eat meat cause I don't see any reason other. So absolutely you can, you were not allowed to even to have even the fat from the animal on Christmas Eve everything had to be some vegetable fat yes, so only after midnight you could start to eat meat so usually people didn't sleep they went to, actually when they went to Christmas mass midnight mass then after when they came back they usually eat, then they eat. [Interviewer]: 'cause the cows and sheep are not singing anymore then. [Respondent]: Yes [laughs]. 1:52 [Interviewer]: How were your homes decorated, I suppose you had a Christmas tree. 01:56 [Respondent]: Yes I usually people, yes, people have just Christmas tree like here they just buy fresh and they decorate with, actually people do some own decoration they craft by themself all kind from paper they make some kind of [bulbs] where it all kind of papers and they also put nice decorated candies on Christmas tree and chocolate and lights. But it was, they didn't have that, I remember they didn't electric lights by that time yet so they had to have candles and that was danger of fires [lighting] candles so they didn't light them for long time just like during they eat the supper they just light them and sing and after you had to close because it was danger for fire. And they put even cookies also and apples on Christmas tree so children could pick and eat off. 03:24 [Interviewer]: In America it's traditional to open the presents on Christmas morning but for my wife in Germany they did that on Christmas Eve. How was it is Poland? 03:35 [Respondent]: It's also on Christmas Eve. They open the, it's usually after the supper they sing all the carols and then after they open the gifts, so is this. 03:54 [Interviewer]: What's another big holiday in Poland, do you have anything that would be similar to our Thanksgiving? 04:03 [Respondent]: Thanksgiving we don't have, there is like harvest holiday in August then people decorate and make some kind of [parades] with harvest and that was the harvest it means like Thanksgiving too you're grateful to God for all the harvest. But that's all I think there's nothing. 04:46 [Interviewer]: How did you celebrate birthdays? 04:49 [Respondent]: Oh birthdays they don't celebrate birthday in Poland there's no birthdays. [Interviewer]: That's a shame. No cakes no birthday cake? 04:58 [Respondent]: No birthday cake. 4:58 SH: No, they do but they celebrate name day like, because birthday nobody knows your birthday and name day that's in the calendar each day you are born is a name day so then people know that it was your birthday. [pause] Actually no it doesn't compare to the birthday. Is the name you were given so your first name given name is, it will be in the calendar and people knows that they look and they know that is your name day will come so then they give, buy you flowers and usually then after work, at work they usually if you work they give you flowers and then after you invite people and you have cakes I don't know they don't have real birthday cake but it's just a party a lot of food and people are usually dancing and [at] each party. 06:21 [Interviewer]: Everyone that I record a live story for I always ask how would you compare your childhood with kids of today but I don't know how you can answer this if you're going to compare them with American kids or if you could compare your childhood with kids who are still living in Poland today. I don't know how long you've been in America but let's... let's have you give some thought to this how was your childhood different how would it compare with children growing up today? 06:58 [Respondent]: I think [sigh] there is much a big difference because when I was growing there was no T.V. there was even, when I moved to my grandmother there was no radio even [that he had]. My grandmother brother had a radio just on the phone ears so you couldn't hear you had to use the phone ear. [Interviewer]: The earphones. 07:35 [Respondent]: Earphones yes otherwise you couldn't hear the radio so but then when I, yes when I went back to my, the north Poland there, oh yes they didn't have electricity there no it's true there's no electricity in that place yet. I don't know the reason why they didn't have it because some big places they did have. Probably 'cause was everything was bombed after the war. But it was when I went to north Poland then there was everything we had radios and everything but the T.V. only came in '50s think the first T.V. was like during '56 or '56. So the children I actually had completely different life. The most people will read books I think a lot of reading children even the whole family will read books. I remember my uncle which when we from south of Poland he will go and like every 2 weeks or every week to the library and bring books for him to read and for us children. We can listen to stories at night. Then I was still too small to read. There was a lot of homeworks actually children who had that much time to even to do much. I remember doing my homework until something 12 midnight when I was like in seventh grade so a lot of study and in high school there was a lot of study but I didn't go to morning classes I went to evening classes so I was more free and I didn't study that much probably because I had a good memory so I could read once and the whole, I remember one time I just I always skip biology 'cause was first 2 hours so I went somewhere else instead of coming to school so the teacher told me you better it was the [pause] middle of the, you had to pass tests the semester was ending he said you better come and get some grades so he told me you had, I had to study all that what I miss so in one morning I just wake up like probably 7 o'clock and then 'til 2 o'clock I study. I read the half book for all that [what it was] and then I went and he could ask me any question and I [knew] everything I remember so that's the way I passed the whole biology in one day. 11:38 [Interviewer]: Did you go to evening school because there was a shortage of buildings or were there too many students to get into the school during the daytime? 11:46 [Respondent]: Yes there was a, yes a lot of students in school so not everybody who applied, not could get in those classes. But evening was more available there was always, but there was usually older people coming to school too on evening classes so I was probably the youngest person going to school. 12:19 [Interviewer]: Can you describe a little bit the houses that you lived in when you were a child? How do they compare with the homes here in America? How do they compare with the homes in Provo? 12:34 [Respondent]: The best house I was living it was in [other one that better one] it was the castle. Not far. Each time actually I went to the, it was a little away from the downtown but it wasn't far you could walk in 10 minutes to downtown so it was really near and each time I had to go to downtown I had to pass by that castle. And everything was built from bricks all the houses was brick houses. But it, the windows were wood made from wood and then glass. We didn't have screens. Some people would put some cloths screen but none I didn't have. But it keep actually it keep cool during the summer during the summer it never were too hot because it keep well the heat the bricks and wintertime you didn't have the air conditioner it was later when they built new apartment and houses then it was still bricks they used but they used some kind of different bricks which I think has some [insulation] inside. So then they built houses with central heating. But I grow, when I live there was just we had a big fireplace but it was all covered it wasn't it just, and you could sit down and or stand beside and heat yourself. It was covered all that fireplace was covered with tiles. So it was nice actually nice looking fireplace. 14:55 [Interviewer]: When you finished school what did you choose to do then? 15:05 [Respondent]: I actually was already working when I finished school I went because I dropped some, for one year I didn't go to school after so I drop. I didn't finish my high school yet. And I went to work in office. I work in, first I work in, it was like for the utilities office when you pay, people pay the electricity but there we call just the electricity company. It wasn't, we didn't have utilities to pay just mainly what you pay it was your electric bill there. So I was working already there. It was, actually I met a friend when I was going to that high school for the adults and she was working in the next office of that electric, she was in the insurance company working in the same building, and she said oh they are looking for a girl to work. So she told me to go and apply there and she talk already to that person there too that we can to 16: 40 apply so that's the way I found my job there. And [pause] so after I went back to school when I was working already and I finish my high school then I'd, I wanted to be always archaeologist because I love history and archaeology, read a lot of books. But the school the university to go it was only like in [war] so I think the archaeology and they only will take every 2 years. You couldn't apply even every year only every second year you were able to apply. So I never became even archaeologist. But there was a time also I wanted to be a nurse when I was 16 oh yes. That's the time that's why I didn't go to high school when I was 16 I wanted, I had all my papers done and I 17:57 supposed to go for a chemistry school and I didn't need to have high school 'cause was like that 5 years technical school. So I wanted to do that but then my mother she didn't want me to go and I wanted to go also to nursing school when I was 15 I think or 16. And that was not that far but she also told me that don't go to nursing school, is people dying and a [scary] place to be so I didn't go to nursing school either at that time so that's why I think I was so upset after and I didn't want to go to school for a year. 19:02 [Interviewer]: During these what we call high school years what was a teenagers social life like? Did you dance, date, and this sort of thing? 19:14 [Respondent]: Yes they do have in Poland they have everywhere those coffee places like you could [tea] your coffee places. Like tea of coffee, they call it [cafe], coffee place actually. And you could, so usually young people will go there and have some tea or coffee and some piece of cake and socialize. And they had also, they did have like cultural center in every place even in a villages they had cultural centers and then you could go 20:01 there and they had piano and they had dances and you could borrow books they had a library usually also. And they even organize some excursion and they also, you could if you had some talent you could, they would test you and you could then choose, be choose to be in a play part in a theater. They organize also a play and you could be in a play or you could sing. They had talent shows. So it was, they... I think the common government wanted people to be occupied always with cultural things so they organize a lot of those things even excursion and when I work they would give you a free ticket to play or to go to opera even into another city. So you had they wanted to keep occupy people and stay away from politics. 21:33 [Interviewer]: When you were at this age it's an age when teenagers often form friendships with other adults and some of these are our teachers. Were there teachers that were favorites to you when you were in these teenage years? 21:51 [Respondent]: Yes actually I had the literature teacher I really like. She was beautiful and she had beautiful voice and could listen forever her voice and when she read anything. So that's why probably why I became so interested in literature. And also the history teacher too. She was she had very interesting, she would tell like in a story all the history. And it was, we had to study the Roman history all those Caesars and so she would tell us stories about all the Caesars, the Julius Caesar and the Octavian and Tiberius and Tiberias and... so I think that's why I developed 23:03 after probably my interest in archaeology. But also evolution that was, we had to study evolution and that started in 3rd grade and I was not interested to read that evolution so I came to class and I didn't read my homework 'cause I said that was boring. [laughter] But then I had to stay after class and read. The teacher would keep me after class had to stay for 2 hours after class and read all that evolution. So then I became interested in evolution after. But I think it was too early for a child in 3rd grade to study those things. 24:05 [Interviewer]: Do you believe evolution today? [Respondent]: No. 24:13 [Interviewer]: When you finish school what happens then in your life? 24:19 [Respondent]: I was still working at, that was still in that electric company. I was still working there. But then after I move to Warsaw think after 4 years. So 2 years after actually I move to Warsaw when I was 20. And I just stayed there. I didn't stay long actually. It was like in probably 8 months I stay in Warsaw I work there. I got a job also in a big company. But first when I arrived I had many choices to look for work. Each time I went just to the employment office. Some, it was, they called them from human resources those people will come and they wanted to hired you right away and they usually look for a young girls. It was very easy to find job. But I decided I didn't want to work right away so I wanted to explore a little. So I went to the, one time when I was waiting there in line some moviemaker people came and they said they need some people to be in a movie. So I went, so I went. I drop the line and I went, so I work there for probably for 2 weeks in that movie. It was just 1 movie. But it was boring too, because you had to repeat over and over one part so I say that's too boring. So I went back again to that employment office and then I got a job actually. Each time I got a job it was always a better pay and better job. So I had actually a good job there in Warsaw but the problem it was traveling by carstreet it was terrible. Tooks like 1 hour to just to go and so many people that you, sometime you never could never get off on your stop 'cause was just too many people in the same carstreet. So I didn't, after I said oh I prefer a peaceful life so I went back to north Poland so I survived there just like 8 months in Warsaw. It wasn't fun at all the life 'cause you were too, I was too tired. In the morning early I had to wake up like 4 'o clock to go to work and I came back like, on the way we had free dinner we had, the company pay for your dinners so you only pay like very little just the difference you had to pay. So on the way always from work I stop to eat then you come back home and then you were too tired already to do anything so I think that was boring life in big city. So I went back to that small city on the north and there I got job right away also. When I went to employment office there was also 1 person from human resources from a big company like Greyhound bus company. He offer me job there right away to do economy, statistic, actually statistic to do. And before I work for bookkeeping that was in the electric company I do bookkeeping and I did also in Warsaw bookkeeping. ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV005_01_ACASS_20010816_03.mp3) Interviewee: Stanislawa Habel Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [beginning of recorded material] [Respondent]: When I moved back from Warsaw to the small city, yes when I was in the employment office, actually I came just came to get my friend. Actually my boyfriend. But I never wanted him to be my boyfriend, but he liked me so much. I met him once, it was when I was sixteen. During vacation he came. He was passing through our city, and he thought I was so beautiful and he wanted to talk to me. He wrote two letters. He was studying at the university in Poland, and he would write letters to me all the time. And then he wanted specially. He chose to do his internship in the city because he wanted to see me. Then after he got the job in that company—he was some kind of mechanic. So he was the engineer mechanic—he said I could work there in that company in the book keeping office. So I told the best company, human resources person that I already had a job. He said, "If you change your mind, please come." So I worked two days in that, my friend's company and it wasn't very interesting, so I though statistics would be better. So then I called and asked if the job was still available, and he said yes. So then I got the other job, and it was better pay. I got quite a good salary there. I worked there for four years until I decided that I wanted to go to Canada during the expo in 1967 in Montreal. I desired so much to be in Canada at that time. Somehow I wrote to my uncle in south of Poland, and he gave my the address of my father. I wrote to my father, and he didn't invite me right away, but he did eventually send me an invitation. But I applied a few times, and I always got refused. I didn't get the permission from the government to go, because they said they didn't want to lose young people. The company I was working in said that they needed me to work there, so I wouldn't get permission. So I say the only way I could get the agreement was if I quit that job, so that's why I quit the job and I went to another city to live with my friend's family. When my mother was in the hospital, she made friends with a friend with that doctor, a young girl doctor. She lived just the next door, living out there. And next door to my house, so we became friends. She said she had a father living and sister living in Sarput by the Baltic Sea. So I quit the job and I went there to live with them. I thought maybe I would go to school there, so I did some preparation for the university. There was a one year course to prepare you for the university. It had been a long time since I finished high school. At that time I... oh yes, I applied again, and I still got refused, but then a friend from work, from the company I worked for had a husband who worked for the emigration office. He told me that I should get a letter from my mother that said she agreed that I could go. I supplied that, and after they let me to go for three months. But from the Canadian Embassy I had permission to be an immigrant, so it was just because of the Polish government that I had to go for only three months. And I thought at first that I would just go just for three months and that I didn't want to stay, but then when I arrived in Canada at the end of November, there was a big revolution in the port, those people who worked in port. They made some kind of strike, and there was a lot of... then Russia sent an army send some army, I don't know and a lot of people got killed there in Poland. My mother wrote to me and said that if I liked it in Canada, I could stay there. So that's why I stay in Canada after. And I met the church in Canada. [Interviewer]: Before we talk about the church, let me ask you about communism. You were old enough then to be able to evaluate what communism was. What did you, your friends, and the average citizen there in that country think about communism. [Respondent]: In all of the books I read when I was young, there was a lot of to brainwash you. So I thought I was communist myself. I thought it was the best system so people could be happy and live in peace and share everything. But it wasn't like that. I know some of these communist people were very good, but some were just evil. They used the system just to make themselves rich, and they didn't care for others. But a few of the people I met were just very good people. In Poland, it was, but in Poland was very difficult to make communism work, really. People are just not made for communism in Poland, I think. There was so much opposition. I remember when I was very young, people would not agree to give away their possessions to the big farms they were supposed to put together. They were to organize one big farm. People would fight; they wouldn't go. They wouldn't go to work, or they would hide themselves, and it was just very hard. People would not submit to communists. In school they tried to brainwash the children. They teach about communists heroes who died for other people, and they made them worship Stalin and Lenin. They were gods. They told us that there was no god, and so those people were like gods. When I was reading those stories, I thought it was the best system for people to live in peace, but I read more stories from different views, and discussed politics with my grandfather (who said that all communists were bad). But at that time I was still very amazed with all these communist heroes, because I was just reading all these books. You couldn't read any books besides the ones they gave you. They assigned you books based on your age, and that's all you could borrow from the library. So I did believe at that time. When I was allowed to read classic literature at around 14 years old, then I was allowed to read from French writers, German writers, and I could borrow those books. And American writers. They still didn't let you borrow every book. [Interviewer]: When you were in Canada, was it quite a surprise to you the way the government worked in that nation? [Respondent]: Actually, I thought it was a good government in Canada. In Poland it wasn't. After they saw that people were so opposed to the communists (there were only two million people in the communist party in Poland, which was less than one percent of the people), they said that you could be religious and you can still be communist. They said you could still go to church, and it didn't matter. So they try at work, they tried to put me in the communist party. But then you had to go to this extra meeting, and I said that my view was still not stable and I needed to explore it. But they still put me like to be investigate the communist party, so I was obliged to go for some meeting and then they gave me the job right away to be the secretary of the meetings, which was very boring. They even sent me to work for the communist party office. They had a special office for the communist party in every city. And there were probably just ten people working there usually. There was the person who was the leader, and the secretary. So we had to do some paperwork usually that they wanted us to do. So I never became a member of the communist party because I said I didn't like... I still have to... I couldn't decide. [Interviewer]: You mentioned when you were in Canada you were introduced to the church. Let's hear about that. [Respondent]: Yes, when I moved to Montreal—because first I came to Sudbury—no, first I arrived by boat to Montreal. It was a Polish boat. It was Stefan Batori. It took me 12 days to travel. From Montreal I took the train to Sudbury because that's the place my father lived. Then I was living probably six months with my father, and then I went to English language school for six months in Sudbury but my my father live actually lived in Chelmsford, 12 miles from Sudbury. So I stayed with a friend that my father's wife knew. I was pay for going to school, and they paid you when you go to language school. It was six months. Then after, I went to Toronto and met a Japanese friend. She was going to English language school too. So we decided to become friends, and we always met at the bus stop. We decided to go to Toronto, because she had some friends in Toronto. And we went there apartment. It was a flat, actually. We rented their apartment together, and I decided to go to hairdressing school. During that time, my husband who I met on that sh... Polish ship, a boat that I took to Canada wrote to me some letters. He wrote to me letters when I was in Sudbury. He invited me, but then I said I didn't want to go to Montreal. He stopped writing, but then after he wrote again for Christmas when I was in Toronto. He invited me to come again. So after when I finished hairdressing school, my friend she didn't want to stay in that flat. She found another place and I decided not to move with her, I just wanted to go to Montreal. I thought Montreal was a more European city, and it was more interesting than Toronto. So I move, so I went to Montreal, and then I started there to work for some hairdressing shop. And then after I married my husband, the one which I had the two children with—Andrea and Alice. And then actual the church I met, it was in Montreal where we were living. It was in Montreal. My son was born in Montreal, we were living just across from Notre Dame hospital. I studied the French language when I was pregnant with my son. Then was he was about six months old, we moved to South Shore. So that was a Longey, just across the river from Montreal. It was... just took 15 minutes to go to downtown by subway. It was there that the missionaries came knocking on the door. We were living in a basement apartment. My husband invited them to come in. I wasn't really interested that much in church at that time because the baby was small still small, and I was very busy with the baby. But my husband started to investigate the church, and he went to meetings with the missionaries. He went to a French branch. I said I wasn't much interested in religion. I said that if a person is a good person, that means he has a good religion. So I said it didn't matter what religion you had. But then the missionaries invited me, and they said maybe I would come if they invited me to the English branch. I said said I would probably like the English branch better. We went together to the English branch. Then, my husband said he wasn't interested. He said he didn't believe in Christ, and that it didn't interest him anymore. But then I started to be interested, and I started church history. When I was in Poland reading all the college books, I read that the indians, the mayans, believed in a white god. So I started to be more interested in religion then, and I took all of the lessons. When they gave us a date to be baptized, he said he would not be baptized. So it took another year. For a while we didn't have missionaries, but then they came again. I decided to just be baptized myself. It took like two and a half years for me to be baptized. That was in Greenfield Park branch. It later became a ward, and now there's even a stake in Montreal. At first we had to be connected with Ottawa and some part of a United States stake. My husband never was interested. And then when my son was about three years old, I went to work in Montreal. It just didn't work with my husband. He always criticized the church, and the worst thing was that he didn't want to work. I was laid off from work too, because the owner declared bankruptcy. So I was home and didn't work. I went to Poland for three months to do some genealogy, and I had unemployment. Then when I came back, I decided to go to work again, but I was actually pregnant with my daughter so I didn't go to work. My husband didn't want to work either. So I told him for one year that if he wasn't going to work, I was going to divorce him. He didn't believe it. That was after my daughter was born. I did leave him when my daughter was 22 months old, and I decided to go to nursing school. The idea came to me when I was pregnant again, but I didn't know I was pregnant. I had a miscarriage and I went to the hospital. In the same room was a nurse, and she worked in the operating room. She told me how great her work was, and so I decided to become a nurse and divorce my husband. ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV005_02_ACASS_20010816_04.mp3) Interviewee: Stanislawa Habel Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [beginning of recorded material] The following recording is made available by the L Tom Perry Special Collections at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. No publication, reproduction, or further use, internet or otherwise, of this recording, is allowed without express written permission from L Tom Perry Special Collections and the rights holders. 00:23 [Interviewer]: Before we go further, I would like to find out what it meant to you to become a mother. 00:33 [Respondent]: Actually, I really wanted to have my son. I was very happy to have him, and I wish that... oh, my husband didn't want to marry. In church I wasn't married, actually in church. We were just married in notaire in City Hall, Montreal, so. And he wouldn't let to be baptized. I was still Catholic at that time but he said he wouldn't let baptize my son either. He didn't want to have him another religion to belong. Said when he is 18 he can choose his religion. So I remember I just, I said, oh I wish that God will take care of my son and help us. I just did a prayer. And I was, I tried to be a good mother. And I, I think it was... I love so much, my son, I couldn't imagine when I was pregnant with my daughter, I couldn't imagine that I could love her as much as my son. Because I thought there was no that could love me more than anything, my son. And he was very good baby actually too. Never never sick. He was very healthy. And actually when I wish to have... my wish came true. I wish to have son and my son was born. So I was very grateful that I had my wish. And then I, when my daughter was born... when I was pregnant with my daughter, I wish so much that I will have a little girl, and I had even dreams about little boys, looking for a mother, but... and I was saying, oh maybe I can have even a boy, doesn't matter. But then still my wish came true, my daughter was born. My daughter was born already when I was in church. My son, he was three years old when I joined the church. Actually two and a half, he was. And my daughter was born, so she was after... two months, I think, she was blessed. Two months she was blessed. Because I had cesarean section so I wasn't feeling good right away, to walk and take care of the baby. That was very hard, I didn't have any family, so I had just take care of myself and my children. 4:27 [Interviewer]: And your daughter was about 22 months old, you say, when you were divorced? 4:33 SH: Yes. 4:33 : Did you stay in Canada? 4:35 [Respondent]: Oh yes, I just move to be close to the branch. The Greenfield Park branch. It was just across the chapel. I move there so I didn't need to travel to church on Sunday, so I move there. And my husband stay in that apartment, which would end in longer, he stay there. I ask him to move and he said he didn't want to move. And I talk to the bishop about divorce, and the bishop advise me to leave because my husband didn't want to work. He was very evil, like he always put me down, and he was always negative and complaining. It was just- I said, I cannot live like that. I will die if I live around negative person for longer time. So he advise me to move, so the church pay my first rent in Greenfield Park, this apartment just across the chapel. Then I went to nursing school, and I arrange some babysitting, just also other side of the street, with one old lady, which she was member of the church but her husband wasn't. So then it didn't last that long, after I decided to put my daughter to kindergarten again. [cough] And so I had to just travel to leave her at kindergarten, and then after go away to school. After, when she was older, she could already... also that it was just across from the chapel, kindergarten. School for her. It was apply, but... Montessori, school. So I leave my daughter there. 7:22 [Interviewer]: Today is August 20th, and we continue with Sasha's life story. Before we go further with anything, I would like to ask you a little bit more about your conversion. What were some of the doctrines you heard from the latter-day saints that caught your interest? 7:44 [Respondent]: Actually, the most, it was the sisterhood and the brotherhood. Because that's what I thought always, people should treat each other as brothers and sisters because we are all children of Heavenly Father. So, and we should... and also then, when I had read about to the United, all of their... that was the most to me. It was the best thing. [clears throat] That people were able to live, like in Zion, long time ago. 8:36 [Interviewer]: After you joined the church, what were some of the first callings that you recieved? 8:44 SH: I work in primary. I was a teacher in primary and also a secretary to the Relief Society. 8:56 [Interviewer]: I have a question too, about your occupation. You mentioned you studied nursing. What were some of the problems and challenges that came with nursing, any? 9:12 [Respondent]: Oh yes, it was hard, because my children were very small still. My daughter was only 22... actually one year, even not one year because she born in the end of September and I start school beginning of September, so she was very small. So I actually, I drop the main nursing course in that first year and I restarted the next year but I continue biology and other courses. So it took me five years to finish my nursing. It was, the mostly it was hard to in the hospital, when you had to go to practice in hospital. Because usually you wake up at like 4 O'Clock in the morning and prepare still for that. 10:22 [Interviewer]: What would be the most enjoyable part of being in nursing? 10:26 SH: Being able to help people. And listen to their... mostly, to ask people complain about their life, or their families or parents. I think the most always it was the complaining, not having enough love this life. So I see that love could be the solution to everything. If we had love in life we would be peaceful. 11:08 [Interviewer]: Yeah, love is in short supply in this world, it seems. 11:10 SH: Yes. It is. People are very aggresive everywhere and they just think about themselves and their own pleasures. 11:24 [Interviewer]: You've talked a little bit about your children, but would you like to say some more about each of your children individually? 11:35 [Respondent]: Okay, my firstborn is Andre, and I wish to name him Nicholas for the second name, but my ex-husband didn't like, so he gave him Andre Mark Nicholas, the third name. And he was born two days early, no actually one week late. He was very good baby, and never sick. Never needed to worry about children being sick, just some minor coughs, oh, an ear infection. And he was, he was going to church, Andre. He was 16, and after he just didn't want to go to church anymore. But he is still a good young man now. He never went on a mission, which I always wish... and he marry girl he met in... at university. Concord, in Montreal. She was born in Pakistan. Her father is Pakistanian but mother is English. And she work, and mother was born in Montreal, I think, somewhere. And they seems to be a happy couple now. But... and Andre, I think he's very good husband. He's good. The only thing he doesn't have yet any plans with he really wants to do in life. They probably will, he finish like next year in May, they will be graduating from Concord University and will study at college. So then they might come here to Utah, they say, if they find a job here or somewhere in the United States. 14:27 [Interviewer]: Do you get to see him often? 14:29 [Respondent]: Oh yes, he was here all the summer, this summer he came for... he came in May and he just left, I think it was the eighth or seventh of August, he just left. And he did build a little shed for... in the garden for me and and did some other things in the house to repair. So he is very talented if he wish to. Because he could do actually anything. Just to look, he just bought a book and never build before anything and just from the book he went step by step and builded the shed. So he just have to use wisely his talents. And the most thing I wish that he will come back to church, because then he could be in the service of Heavenly Father and help to build the kingdom. When he was small, my ex-husband, he told me never to tell him anything about religion until he was like five years. No, he was like three years maybe I think. And so I didn't tell him much really. And then he came one day from kindergarten, and he said he was going to buy a gun, he wanted to buy. I said "why?" He said, "Oh, I want to kill all those people who killed Jesus Christ." Because it was I think Easter and the teacher told them about Jesus. She was a Catholic, so. They- she just told what she know about the whole day and what happens and that's what... and then when I told him later the story that we are supposed to go and build Zion in Missouri, that will happen one time, so he always wish to go there when he was small, but not anymore now. [17:37] And Alice, she was born two days later. She was also very healthy and good baby. Very sweet and started to walk just exactly on her birthday day. And she was... I think she was a wise baby, same as Andre. When he was like I think 14 months, he... there was a table which had a loose leg and the leg will always... it was a telephone table, and the leg always fell so he tried to repair it always the leg at fourteen months. I thought that was very wise for a child to do that. And Alice, when she was like... well she started to walk when she was just one year, and then I was very scared that she will put her finger between the doors in living room. There was like open doors at the angle. And so the minute she came to living room I would go and close that door, the closet door. And one day she-she came and I didn't see that she came to living room to play, and she went and closed the door, and she showed me her finger that she was not going to put there. The finger. So I thought that was very wise for a small child, just one year old. And also when I used to- when I go to school I had to live here at the nursery, and on the way back from school I had to pick her up, so one day I was.... and she never wanted to walk from the bus. It wasn't that far, but she was quite heavy and I had to carry my suitcase too, and books, so she said she didn't want to walk so I had to carry her and I told her that she was heavy, but then she told me in Polish that she loves me. To make me... probably easier to... the hardship of carrying her. So I thought that was also very nice of her. And she learn very fast English when she went to Montessori school, and she, when she was just like two, three. Three years old, she wanted to already to take ballet lesson but she was too young so she had to wait until she was four, so she took some ballet lesson there, they had in the... No I think I had to send her to some classes. She started ballet lessons. But now she doesn't continue anymore. She did this is her last year. I think or the year before. And she used to like always to draw things and paint. She did, she took some painting classes here in Provo in middle school, and turned quite very good here. Her pictures. She is now going to [pause] to college, actually here it is called college but in Canada called Cégep, and she studied fine arts. She did some painting and she learn also scripture, and she's very good in painting. And she will finish also next year her college, and then she plans to go to university. And she didn't go. She stopped going to church when we move here actually. She didn't... somehow she didn't enjoy to be here in church, I don't know. She... when they went back to... she still went for a few times but after she stopped going to church when they moved to Montreal. They just didn't enjoy being here and miss friends, so they bought... and then they say they didn't like the school here, they prefer going to school in Canada. So that's why Andre went to college when he went back, and Alice she went to high school then to... I think she couldn't get to the same grades as she was here. She had to drop one grade because somehow they taught- they were more advanced than here, the school system. 24:08 [Interviewer]: When your children were small at home, did you have some favorite family activities? 24:15 [Respondent]: We went a lot of activities in church, we had. And actually, when they were very small I had to study mostly, because it took my five years to study. So I just finish... but it was still better than working because I still had more time for my children. Because I had- I didn't need to stay all day and work. Just classes sometime were five hours or six hours and I couldn't be home. And then we had some days off too, some like Christmas and... so it was much easier to go to school than working. So by the time I finish nursing school, Alice, she had just started first grade. So then I thought I had to work night shift to be there during the day with my children, so I work for two years night shift. And my neighbor will... she was just across the next door. My son was already twelve going on thirteen. And was apartment building in my neighbor was just next door, so she said in case anything happened she would go and check on them. So that was like that for two years. And I think we did have some family home evenings, and my one of brother in law, we used to go often, there is activities. And just came to visit, like over the summer he was here. So he drop in with all of his family except one daughter, he came and visit. We just... that was the beginning of August, when Andre was still here and Alice. 26:55 [Interviewer]: Let's talk about your parents a little bit. Did your parents tell you how they met? 27:08 [Respondent]: No, actually, no, they never did that. My mother she never told me that either. I don't know. But they must... it was a small place and it was during the war, so I just don't know how they met really. 27:29 [Interviewer]: Let's hear a little bit about your father's personality. 27:34 [Respondent]: My father, I never saw him until I came to Canada, and that was the first time I saw him, when I arrive by train. But I saw him on pictures. So, I thought always thought I was unfortunate to not having a father, growing without father, but then when I came I thought, maybe I should be thankful I didn't have father. Because... I don't know, my father, in some way he was a good person, but I don't know, some other ways, he had a lot of problems. Maybe it was also because he didn't have a father when he was young. His father died when he was nine years old, and his mother remarried after, and so I don't have... nothing. My father divorced also, his... she actually divorce him, the second wife. She just I don't know, she just always prefer some other person than my father, so that was the main problem in them I saw. And they... but he was a hard worker, he work very hard, and he like to save money so everybody could have enough and it will be well. So he work in the garden and wash dishes so I that I thought that was nice of him to do. And even vacuum the house for his wife. And my mother, she ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV006_01_ACASS_20010816_05.mp3) Respondent: Stanislawa Habel Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [beginning of recorded material] The following recording is made available by the L Tom Perry Special Collections at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. No publication, reproduction, or further use, internet or otherwise, of this recording, is allowed without express written permission from L Tom Perry Special Collections and the rights holders. 00:21 [Interviewer]: Now some thoughts about your mother? 00:24 [Respondent]: My mother, she never had anything good to say about my father. Just, I think that [clears throat] that my grandmother came to my father... he told probably to my mother that's why he came back. That told him to go back to his wife, so. But otherwise my mother had a life she even love my father. But she must have in the beginning if she marry him, but I don't know for how long, probably... not long at all. And she didn't think my father was a good person. Because she told me one example that when all the children of like her sisters and... cause it was during the war, so the family moved from Warsaw from other places they came to stay, during the war in her father house. So when she cook, she gave the food to the children and my father was complaining about. So that's why she thought my father wasn't a good person. And... but he obeyed that my grandmother come out and came back. So that was... she remember that as a good thing probably. But then he left again, and my mother never was sorry that he left because then she never love him. But she did really love me. And I think it was kind of- it was also selfish love because she always wanted me to be with her all the time. So I had to run away if I wanted to play with children. And make me feel like a slave. But I'm sure it was a good thing for me because then I loved freedom. It was the most thing, the best thing to me to be free. So that's what help me give me the desire to go to Canada. So in a way, it was a good thing that my mother... that I was her slave, in a way. And my mother was always very dependent on me, so then I learn to be independent. Because I am sure if I didn't learn that, I couldn't survive here, and when I came to Canada. So that help me to survive here. So I am sure that anything what happens in your life, it is... everything you can turn to good and valuable thing. 4:27 [Interviewer]: With your parents being separated, how did your mom manage to provide a living for you? 4:33 [Respondent]: It was very hard, because my mother she didn't have any profession. She say she do bad in school and girls were not really encouraged to do any profession when she was young. They were not encouraged to go to school; only if they wanted. And my mother somehow, she say she didn't like the new teacher who came to school and she just didn't want to go after, so she had like four grade only. But her four brothers went to school and her brother went even went to high school and I don't know if he go to university, probably too. But, so her school ended, and she mostly did live on a farm. And so she work, just... and she was the youngest of four girls. But she had two younger brothers. So she help mostly helped at home. And she didn't had... I don't know if she had any talents, like, my older aunt, they used... some were very good cooks, some could sew. My one aunt, she was very good in sewing. Because my grandmother was very talented in sewing and everything. Cooking, anything she could touch she could do very well. My one uncle, the younger brother of my mother, he told me some what my mother somehow she was, she didn't get being to the youngest of the girls. She didn't. She was too attached maybe to grandmother. And she didn't pay attention to a lot of things, I don't know. But she could cook if she wanted. But she didn't really enjoy it, so I learn very early to cook and cook for her and she work hard too, my mother. She was a hard worker and she was an honest person. My father, I think he was... his wife, second wife, will always say that he was an honest person too. 8:01 [Interviewer]: Is your mom still alive? 8:03 [Respondent]: No, my mother, she died when I had just came to here to Provo. 8:09 [Interviewer]: Did she write any sort of a life story? 8:12 [Respondent]: No, she didn't. She never did anything. She didn't like to write. But I still have some letters her, I keep some letters, so maybe I have to... share some letters. But she didn't... I don't know if she had... she say she didn't have much to, in of her life. Her life was centered about me. She loved rewarding me, like anything in this world. She didn't care for anything in this world other than me. She... and we move very often and when I went in childhood I remember we move from one place to the other place because somehow if she didn't agree with that people, it was usually her sisters, would stay together. Because she didn't have any profession and being alone after the war... it was better to stay with other family. So I remember that until I was probably until seven grade I think, we were always living always with another sister. And after her sister Janina and her son Tadeusz, they... they decided to move to Warsaw. Back to Warsaw. Because that's the city he was born, in Warsaw, when they was living. She was married to husband, my aunt Janina. But she didn't love her husband either, because he was cheating on her, so. But they died during the war. Her- and her oldest son. So she was always crying about her older son, and she look everywhere. I went many time to... we went to Sieniawa, we wrote letters and Krysty were walking on the street in Warsaw, and the men were separated, and so she was walking with her husband and all of a sudden they separate them and she never saw them. But her youngest son was with my mother to help my mother to carry me. So that's... so he survive. And so they decided... so then we started to be alone, just me and my mother. And I don't know, my mother was... she [sigh] wouldn't have much fun because of wanting me to be always with her. But somehow I always ran away. To see my friends and she didn't like my friends either, because she wished me to always be just with her. And she always say if she dies she wanted me to die the same day so that we could be there together. She didn't want to die alone without me. So that's why I thought that was a strange love, but it made me a better person I am sure, because of that. 12:36 [Interviewer]: You've mentioned that you have some half brothers and sisters. Could we hear a few words about them? 12:41 [Respondent]: Yes. So my father marry another woman. When I was still in Poland. And actually, he was still married to my mother even. 12:55 [Interviewer]: When he married this other lady? 12:57 [Respondent]: Yes, so he was polygamist, yes. So I thought that was very bad I thought, of my father, too. And my mother never had a good thing to say about my father. And then he didn't care even to come and see me. I was sixteen years old at that time. So he came to Poland to marry that other woman, which he... and my it was my father's... my grandfather's sister. So his father sister. She was a little lady and he corresponded with her and she found him another wife. Actually he was her neighbor. And so he came and marry her and never came to visit even me. He left like twenty dollars for me, with that... and he sent. So I had to come when I was sixteen and then she gave me the twenty dollars for me that is all that it was. Then I met my aunt that was my grandfather which I never saw my grandfather because he died when my father was young, he died. I think of pneumonia, he died of pneomonia. So I met some cousins there too, her daughter. She was living with her daughter and she had two children, her daughter. And so my father, after, when his wife came to Canada, then... and she didn't love him, because she just marry to get out of Poland so she could be in Canada. That's why she marry my father. So she yes, they... but they did have like five children, and the children they had. The children all were healthy and nice. But my step mother, she never love my father so she always turn against all the children to my father so they respect him probably just because he raise them and work hard, but otherwise they didn't love my father much either. 16:22 [Interviewer]: And they all would have been born in Canada, right? 16:24 [Respondent]: Yes, they were born in Canada. They all just... Alanta... it was the girl. She was very pretty. And the younger one was Margie, then Johnny. John was the first son. And then it was Christina, another girl. She was just... when I came to Canada, she was small, just a small baby. Just about two years old baby still. And then there was Michael, the youngest, born later. He was just... Michael was born just born half year before Andre, so he was Andre's uncle while being just half year older. And they all manage to go to school, and they didn't go to university. John I think go on to university, and Michael went to university but he was very talented and smart but he just didn't continue finish his university. He is apparently living now in Vancouver. But when we keep in touch step mother was alive she came to visit me, and she wrote always to me... but... and I went for a wedding, of John wedding. And that's the last time I saw them all. 18:16 [Interviewer]: So, through the years it sounds like you weren't able to see them very often? 18:20 [Respondent]: No, only when I stay for 6 months when I came from Poland to Canada. I stay. And after I went to Sandbury to for English language to learn, and then after I move to Toronto. And they- I came on vacation, and my... one vacation, my son stay with them, cause I had to work, so. They agreed to- that my son could stay there. I think the nursery was closed during the summer a long time. So he had a chance to grow, together with the youngest brother, step- half brother. And then I also came to visit them after to pick up Andre. Actually I still stay also for vacation, after vacation I stay with them for 2 weeks there. 19:46 [Interviewer]: How about some comments about some of your uncles and aunts and cousins? 19:53 [Respondent]: Yes, my mother, she had three, no two sisters and her two brothers. And her oldest sister was- her name was Kazimiera. And the younger, Janina. But she was, both were older than my mother. And then we have, she had two younger brother: Edward, and the youngest brother was Władysław. But he was never married. He was about thirty years old when he was burned to death together I think with the Jewish people. My mother walk just in the street with her brother and he was taken. They took all the men and they just burned them up. And they just put them in the building and put fire on the building. There is still a monument in that place, I went to see. I went and all the people's names. I don't know if they had names, all those people. But that's the place, all those people died there. And so I have on the picture that my mother's youngest brother in my house, my mother gave it to me. And my mother went after that happened, she went and there were like two skeleton hands holding each others, and those people were still helping each other when they were burning. It was a terrible thing. And I think probably that's make my mother always tearful. She- I always remember she always was crying, and there was... I don't know, got depressed very easily and was never being happy, really, in her life. The only happiness, it was to be with me. 22:46 [Interviewer]: When you were young, did you see these folks very much? Your relatives? 22:50 [Respondent]: Yes, my... oh no, I forgot one! No she had three aunt. There were three aunt there. The third one, I forgot her name. How could I forget her name? Oh yes, Bronisława. That was the... she was still just before my mother. She was the third aunt born before my mother, so her name was... I'm sure it's Bronisława. So we were living first when, after the war, we went to to get her. My mother went to get her with that, with her sister, and we went south of Poland to live in Zielonsk, which, before it belonged to Germany, so we had to live in a house with some German people but they move after. And they were nice people actually. Because they divided Poland again in the new way, so that became Poland, and same thing, North Poland became- before, it was occupied by German people, so it became... it belonged to Poland, so. And there were, I'm sure there were very many unhappy people, because some of those people had to leave everything and move back to Germany and leave everything. And then the east of Poland, Russia took all that part and then Polish people had to move out of that part. There were a lot of people from Lithuania that came and, there's... it was... they had to adjust to a new life, those people. So we leave with my youngest and stay with aunt, she had a husband, and she had my three cousins. The oldest was Mariza, and then Tadeusz and Krystyna. So I grow up with them probably until I was five years old. During that time, my mother, she became angry and she left them already. And she went to the place when I was born, and my grandmother live there, my father mother. So. And then she became sick with scarlet fever, she got scarlet fever. They call scarlatina in Polish. She was two months in hospital. And when my mother get out of the hospital I couldn't recognize her. Because I was still very small, I was probably like two or three years old at that time. But I remember, my aunt Janina, she was visiting there and she came to visit me. And I didn't know who she was. [laughter] She was always very upset that I didn't receive her nicely, and always remember that, and would remind me about that. So after, we went to... I think my mother went back to her sister Branislawa. And then from there we went to live with my oldest aunt Kazimiera. [---] On the north of Poland, and I remember also my uncle Edward. He used to come for vacation with his wife and his children so I got to know his children. He had only two sons. Yatsykan and Ian were his two son. His oldest son was Yatsykan, he was very talented, too. He could paint and do sculpture. But the youngest, he had good playing but he didn't pursue his study. He married very early, he found a girl and I think when he was 18 he already marry. And my uncle, I talk to him a lot when I went to visit him, so he told me a lot of things about my grandmother and her family and how they live. When they were living near Warsaw. My grandparents and the children, my father mother. Yes, my mother father and the mother. He was... yes, my grandfather, I never met him because he died even before the war. And I never met my grandmother, because she died even before my mother was even married. ----- new page (UPB_MSS8934_AV006_02_ACASS_20010816_06.mp3) Interviewee: Stanislawa Habel Interviewer: Dennis Campbell Date: August 2001 [beginning of recorded material] The following recording is made available by L Tom Perry Special Collections at Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah. No publication, reproduction, or further use, internet or otherwise, of this recording is allowed without express written permission from L Tom Perry Special Collections and the rights holders. 00:22 [Interviewer]: The things that you were told about your grandmother. I hope you wrote them down. 00:28 [Respondent]: No I didn't write yet. 00:29 [Interviewer]: You're going to though, aren't you? 00:31 [Respondent]: Oh yes. Which one is the one that she came from, the older one? 00:40 [Interviewer]: You were mentioning that you were being told about your grandmother by one of your other relatives? 00:46 [Respondent]: Mhm [affirmative]. Yes, my uncle? 00:48 [Interviewer]: Uhhuh [affirmative] 00:49 [Respondent]:Yes. Oh, he told me mostly that she was very talented woman. But, she was never happy either. He told me that she was never happy in her life because she didn't marry in her class person. Like, my grandfather was... I don't think so he had any- he wasn't rich but he was very actually talented but he wasn't rich, and she was from rich family, my grandmother. And they had... they were all well educated, the whole family. And ... they had even factory in Warsaw. It was her uncle. And they were, I don't know, somehow my... maybe the family made her to think that she shouldn't- maybe they were against my father- her to marry my grandfather. I don't know, but somehow she wasn't... they thought she should marry some other person in the same level class. 2:37 [Interviewer]: Do you have any relatives still living in Poland? 2:40 [Respondent]: Oh yes, there still is. And my Aunt Jenina, she found some family related to my grandmother, so. And they live in Warsaw. I met them on one occasion or two occasion I think. They keep in touch, so. And so when my- ok, so when my grandfather, yes, marry my grandmother, they didn't have farm or nothing I think, but then he was working in one... very rich man. I think he was a- Potocki[c is pronounced ts in Polish], his name was Potocki. He was like, I don't know they call him... not Prince, but the other... Hrabia[Count], I think. Hrabia Potocki. So he was working in his forest and he was the... he manage the forest. He was the forest ranger. But he had another rangers under him, working, so he was managing those forest rangers. It was a big forest. And they live very good life. They had house just there, so they had... they said they had very good life. And there was... all the children were small, they had everything. They don't need to worry about... because they live, in that... near palace. And the Hrabia Potocki live there too. And he really respect my grandfather and he like him. And so he save money and then he could buy a farm. That is what the place when I was born, he bought there a farm, and also with a... mill. It was the air mill. It turns with the air. It was old system. So he, my grandfather work in the mill and had small farm after. 6:07 [Interviewer]: Do you want to say anything about your in laws? 6:11 [Respondent]: Oh, my in laws I never met them. Because my ex husband father also died when he was like, I think nine or eight years old. So he grow up also without father. And he was... he had a younger brother. No, he had oldest- older brother, and younger sister. So he was the middle one. And he told me that when he was small, his father never like him because when he was a baby he used to cry and cry. So the father even wanted to kill him. So he doesn't have good memory of his father. But he was the one in family who went to school. He was the best in school always when he was in elementary school, so he then goed to high school very easily because he had the best school results. And he help his mother a lot. They found a farm also. And his mother had to raise the care of the family, so she had to work hard. So he had to take care of his younger sister all the time. And his mother just died, just before we got married. So I never see her, but I went to visit there. I went twice, visit once with Andre when he was 5 years old, and then with Alice when she was... when Alice was just... I think 10, about 9 or 10 years, Alice was. I went with her to visit her sister and brother. So I saw the place their mother was living there, before. But... and the brother was living still in that same place. The old mill, that place. And so his brother name was... I just don't remember now his brother name. But the sister name is Irene. And my husband name is Joseph. What a life he has. I just forgot the name though. I guess they don't... they didn't call him by his name. They call him the children of hi- my... they call him just uncle. So that's why. I'm sure I have written at home, the name, so I can find probably the name. 10:24 [Interviewer]: Poland had a lot of pain and destruction, in the last century. If Poland had had peace, all during these years, with no war, would you have been just as happy to remain in Poland? 10:44 [Respondent]: No. I don't know, I just, I wanted always... I read a lot of books when I was small, and growing up I love geography, I love archaeology and history and I just wanted to travel and see all those things. I always wanted to go to all those places which I was reading and study. 11:17 [Interviewer]: What caused you to come to Provo? 11:20 [Respondent]: To Provo actually I came... I thought because I was divorced, so I thought it would be easier life for me here, with my children than in Canada. And then my ex husband always wanted to manage my money and always call. I never felt that I was divorced from him because he would call all the time, every day. And so I... and actually I came also to work on my geneology. I thought I would have more time here. But actually here is... I didn't have the vacation much. Like in Canada, every nurse have right away 4 weeks vacation. And then I work in psychiatry, so I had one week extra vacation, so I had 5 weeks vacation, then you could exchange days with another nurses, and so I got 6 weeks vacation. But here I found that you couldn't do those things, so you never have vacation much, and people even didn't take vacation, they were keeping vacations. So they could, when they get sick they could use their vacation. So here I didn't have that much time, I just work afternoon for 6 years at state hospital. And I didn't advance much, I was planning to study. I did... went to study for a year. I studied at the... I wanted to finish, to graduate with Bachelor degree from nursing, but I didn't finish after. Because they change my shift... no, they change my days off all the time. So I just didn't... I did for one year, I have study. I did very hard work there. 14:10 [Interviewer]: What are your plans for the future? 14:16 [Respondent]: I just am appreciating that now I have better job than I had before. And this even I have very uncontrolled days off. And different shifts to work, I never know when I... but I, at least I can plan some. Occasionally I work extra, but I get my days off, and I have to finish. I did register for... I pay already for that course I have to start maybe now in September. And I put my house in order. Because we move from one bedroom to... all the bedrooms was move around, when my children came here. So there is still a lot of things not in order to finish. And we told that my son, did all that work still not finish the windows and not finish from inside. And he did one window upside down, the main window. So we have to still hire somebody and to... finish that window, redo that window. So then I will start to, I would have to start my study for it's a hard science, maybe if I finish it I can have even phD degree from the hard sciences. But I have to just start and do those things. But it is not... I thought it would be more interesting when I started them, but actually now there is so much new thing that I could- I read already better than all that study I started. So that's why I wasn't very interest. It was to me very interest, not interesting to continue. But I said, if I pay, I have to just finish that and get the... my certificate, so my... just for... just to be... I don't know if that will give me anything, because there is much new discovery now, better, in health. Natural health science is the most things I have. 17:13 [Interviewer]: Do you plan to live the rest of your live in Provo? 17:19 [Respondent]: I wanted to go on a mission. Like, when I was very miserable at my work, I was working nursing home and I work also for the agency. And even when I started, yes, when I started this, pediatrics was for me very hard, and I said, oh I won't be able to survive more than two years working. I said, in two years I just wanted to go on mission after. Because I said, that's way too hard, to work. And... but I am still grateful to have that work. And when I started they told me that I should work at least two years, because they had to train me to become pediatric nurse. So that's why I thought I would work two years and then go on mission. And I ask my son if he would come and live here. At that time he said yes, but now he doesn't have that plan anymore. He said he doesn't know where he is going to stay, [---] he finds job. And then I got my raise, and now I don't know if I will be able to go on mission in two years. Because my husband does not make much money at all. He just work in the store. He says it depends how much he sells. So he doesn't make that much money. So it looks like I could go on mission but he could not go on mission in two years. And he still has to work, I think, until 65, and I will have to work until 65 as well to get pension. Then after, we could go on mission when we get pension I think only. But before I started, I wanted to move to Missouri, but that was when I left. When I was planning to leave the state hospital. I went there and inquire about jobs there, and I visited liberty jail, and I went to Adam-ondi-Ahman, and I went to the visiting center there in Independence, Missouri. And I really enjoy that. Some kind of spirit you feel when you are there, it is something special. Especially in Adam-ondi-Ahman. It was even night time, but you, you could still feel the Spirit there. Because by the time we found where... I went with my friend. By the time... it was dark already because we were lost, it was difficult to find the place. And those people who work there, they had very good Spirit. There was one sister, she was just like two years... she was working at the liberty jail. A missionary. And she was just baptized like two years ago. And she had very strong spirit about Missouri, that... like they were... got [---] the Spirit for all those bad things happen to Joseph Smith and all those Latter-day Saints people but now he started to bless. So that's why it will become a blessed place, probably to live after, for the Latter-day Saints. So I wish to move there, and I inquire about jobs. And I even... they used to send me every year, actually to jobs offer. Because I pass the test. No it wasn't test, it was for government jobs, like for the state of Missouri. I inquire and they got me for the... my application passed there. So they used to send me nursing jobs for the state all the time, but after I was afraid to just move myself. And so I, and now when I finally found this I say no I don't need anymore think about. So I just didn't answer for my last job even. 23:02 [Interviewer]: How did you meet your current husband? 23:06 [Respondent]: I met him in a choir practice. And it was, I went with some older person invited me there. I met that older person when I went last year for Thanksgiving. It was for a single Thanksgiving for one of the brother have a home. So he has a big house actually. Lani, his name is Lani. He here in Provo. And my friend Silvia, she invited me. She said... I didn't plan to go to that Thanksgiving, but... because I was going to cook some supper for the girls that were renting in one bedroom from me. But they decided to go to... one of the girl in Provo, to go for one of the suppers. And also, I had to work that day. That day I had to work, and I came back in the morning from work, and I had to go for the night shift at seven on Thanksgiving, so I didn't have much time at all. So I just slept a few hours and I went, and Silvia, she came and pick me up. We went for the Thanksgiving, and then I met that older gentleman. He was... his name was Bob. And he was from California. And he is living I think 7 years already here, in American Fork. And I didn't know that he was that old, he was already 75. After I found out that he was 75 I said that's way too old person for me. And I know that age difference does not work, because then you have nothing in common really. Because my father marry my mother and the marriage didn't survive. Then, he marry a younger, he yes, my father marry 16 years old, older woman, my mother. And then he marry 16 years younger, a woman, and it didn't work either. So I knew that age difference are not good in marriage. So I told him right away that I... too big difference. But he come....he call me and he invited me to dance, so I went once to dance with him, and then he invited me for supper and that was when it was... he sing in the choir for- it was for Christmas, the concert. They were practicing, the single choir. And it was in Spanish Fork, so he- just before he invited me to... yes, I work that day, night shifts, so I slept. So I decided to go to single ward for the sacrament, because I could sleep longer, because you know, my work was at nine o'Clock, the service, so I slept at least until 12 o'Clock, it was the one for the singles. So after I went, Bob, he pick me up, to go to the sacrament single, and then after, we went to eat, and he didn't have time to drive me back home, so he said I should go and wait for him during the choir practice there. And then I met Lars. I was sitting in the last row of seats, and Lars was just passing and started to talk to me, because I was sitting there just by myself. See, Bob, he was just one row of seats before me. And after, after the when it was finished, at choir practice, he came to talk again, Lars, and he gave me his business card, and... But then Bob was very angry and jealous. But I told him that he was too old anyway for me! And after Lars, he invited me the next week, he invited me to go... it was at the senior citizen, there was a dance before Christmas. It was a dance. So I went with him there. And we both dance. We agreed very well to dance. It is a good... he can dance very well, Lars. And too, he is... from that time we started to... he always call me, every day. From that time we started to call, every day. And we study scripture on the phone and pray together on the phone. And then, during Christmas I was sick. I catch very bad cold. So he came and take care of me when I was sick. And he do tea for me and lemon juice and so he was... I thought he was a nice, caring person. And but I- Silvia, my friend, she still told me I should not marry Lars, but Bob, because Bob was better off. He had house, and had already pension, and Lars doesn't have nothing. He lost everything. He has like.... he lost $40,000 and when he bought his... from his last house he sold, he had to sell for less, $40,000 less than he bought. So he